The Church’s Reaction to the Lack of Shock and Horror on the 18th March
Thanks to a commenter we now have the CoG-PKG’s “official” reaction to the lack of shock and horror as postulated in Weinland’s own book. You will note the highlighted phrases; the emphasis is mine, but they provide a clear example of milieu control. This, combined with the financial abuse of the membership, suggests that Ron&Co might very well be in this little enterprise solely for the money. Weinland may in fact not believe that he and his wife are the two witnesses of Revelation.
No word yet on what they’re going to do in three and a half years if one of their truly faithful members demands to see the Weinlands lying dead in Jerusalem.
Message as it was sent by the commenter:
This from your book on page 23: “I know the exact day the Sixth Seal was opened, and the world will be shocked and in horror on the day that the Seventh Seal is opened.”
There was certainly nothing that was shocking today. Did you make a mistake here and really mean that the first trumpet would be a day of horror? From everything else I’ve heard from you things wouldn’t really happen in the US until April. Can you be very specific as to when in April things will happen? I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but at this point I am having second thoughts. Thanks again.
The church’s response:
Dear Brandon, thank you for your email.
God has now revealed that there is a separation between the opening of the seventh seal and the start of the Great Tribulation. God reveals the truth progressively and will continue to do so. Amos 3:7. Surely the Lord GOD does nothing, unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.
Oh ho so now there’s a “separation”. How convenient. Well we knew that anyway.
Our current understanding is:
1335: The sealing of the 144,000 that will make up the Government of God at Christ’s return in 2011 took place on the 2nd February 2008. 45 days later we will arrive at 1290 days.
1290: The Seventh Seal is opened and the Seven Thunders intensify particularly in the nations of Israel for the purpose of awakening spiritual Israel – the Church of God that was scattered. This will start the awakening of the remaining remnant (those baptized before December 1994 – approximately 3000) and will continue right up until the return of Jesus Christ. 30 days later we arrive at 1260.
The final three thunders have not intensified, but I see now that the church is saying the seven thunders will intensify after the seventh seal is opened, not before, as they had it in the book [pp. 115, 2008: God’s Final Witness]. Again, how convenient, that the church’s “understanding” has “changed” on this matter.
Oh and by the way has anyone started hearing from these three thousand members of the scattered church yet?? I didn’t think there were three thousand left that hadn’t either abandoned religion completely (yours truly included) or had already settled on a splinter. Mind, Weinland made a point of saying in the March 22 sermon, that there were people from Worldwide Church of God present, “people from the scattering, being drawn back to god’s true church”. I highly doubt there were three thousand present, however.
1260: This is the beginning of the Great Tribulation and 3 1/2 years before the return of Jesus Christ. The beginning of the fall of the USA and other Israelite countries will happen from the start of the 1260 days. It is not known how long this will take to be completed. It may take 6 to 12 months. God will reveal this information to His Prophets.
Still waiting on the “revelation” of the second witness. Nice to see that now the church is starting to wiggle on their April 17th date. After all, they wouldn’t want April 17th to roll around, nothing to happen, and all their “converts” to head for the hills, taking every last penny of their hard-earned money with them!
The only way a person can understand this timeline is by revelation given by God. The Church of God knows the date Jesus Christ returns because of the timing of the opening of the seals and the revealed truths contained in the annual Holy Days.
Again, “you don’t have to look anything up, you don’t have to read anything, you just know it to be true”. Clearly milieu control.
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing, Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.
Sincerely Wayne
The Church of God PKG
Let us examine the context of that little biblical verse, shall we? Amos is warning the Israelites that they have strayed away from “the law” and their god is very very very angry. The questioning amongst the biblical bunch were going “But we don’t have your “law” written down anywhere so we can’t follow it so neener neener neener!” Amos decided to sidestep this little problem by making sure the sheep were cowed under by the idea that “god” would place “the law” into the minds of the high priests, thereby negating the need for a written “law” to begin with. (Or, then the high priests would write their own version of “the law” down and call it a day.)
Anyone care to take wagers the Church of God PKG here is doing exactly the same thing?
Weinland Watch 
Be sure to have those un-altered/edited radio interviews at the ready. There is no way he can wiggle out of those. Mercifully those should be the final nails into this circus.
At the very least he will be a rich…False Prophet…but a False Prophet no less.
And to his own surprise it will be his own conscience that will take care of the rest…
Firestorm
March 23, 2008 at 4:29 am
The test in a Christian belief system has been and always has been that if a “prophet” makes a prophecy and that prophecy does not come to pass, then that “prophet” is a false prophet and is not speaking from God but from his own mind.
There is NO wiggle room, there is NO margin of error, there is NO “oops, I heard wrong, I am going to change it now because now we have revealed new truth.”
The Christian understanding is this: If they have to ALTER any, and I mean ANY portion of the books written by Ronald Weinland, rest assured, these books are not prophecies of God, they come from the mind of Ronald Weinland. According to Aggie’s reporting here, they are already altering because one aspect of the prophecy did not occur exactly as written. The minute an evangelist or a preacher or a pastor starts sidestepping and evading the questions and posting “new understandings” is the minute you should step aside and leave and never have contact with those people again.
And in the Christian perspective – for it to be from God, it has to happen exactly AS written. There is no margin of error, there is no “I heard wrong”. It’s either from God, or it is not – and in this case —
it clearly is not.
shadowsofwcg
March 23, 2008 at 5:43 am
“And to his own surprise it will be his own conscience that will take care of the rest…”
Conscience? From a member of the Levitical priesthood? You are kidding me right?
weinlandwatch
March 23, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Shadow: “There is NO wiggle room, there is NO margin of error, there is NO “oops, I heard wrong, I am going to change it now because now we have revealed new truth.”
That’s addressed to the sane portion of the congregation with the ability to think and reason…yeah I know..brave new concepts for god ‘n sons incorporated…kingdom. …They will have to work on that title it’s starting to sounding a bit awkward.
WW: “Conscience? From a member of the Levitical priesthood? You are kidding me right?”
So…this guys has no conscience at ALL? Eureka! That could only mean one thing!
Firestorm
March 23, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Whew! I was baptized in 1984. I’m glad those seven thunders have woken me up!
So let’s see — seven thunders intensify, while there’s silence in heaven? This is a little confusing….
Richard
March 23, 2008 at 3:48 pm
I was baptized by Ronald Weinland himself, in the Worldwide Church of God, sometime between 1985-1994 (vague dates on purpose.) I knew the man for several years. I know how he operates, I’ve seen him in action. And of course, there has been no “wake up” from any “thunders”. In fact, there have been no “thunders” intensifying at all. The entire plethora of strange doctrines in the mindset of Armstrongism is indeed confusing, and is confusion. It’s a difficult task to take things that are not truth and attempt to mold them into truth. This is why you can see the “shifting” already beginning to happen, and will continue to happen as their predictions end up to be worse then an 8-year old attempting to predict the weather next week.
shadowsofwcg
March 23, 2008 at 4:30 pm
A sane logical person would conclude that (at the very least by now) that April 17th cannot be the surprise, it cannot be the shock and horror. Why? Because over and over again RW emphasizes a gradual escalation. Simply put there is no gradual escalation therefore the puzzle pieces cannot be put together. If God intended a surprise here…a surprise there…then the entire book of revelation would be surprises and not a gradual time-line of events….which btw half of it Weinland (with great boldness) explained away in spiritual happenings (with a few of his claymation twistings) …
To him WWIII could be something like 2 of his church members fighting each other because someone has left their keys in the car…
ha…..ha
Firestorm
March 23, 2008 at 5:15 pm
From Interview Comments, the words of Ronald Weinland:
“Indeed, the Living Church of God, under the leadership of Roderick Meredith, and the Church of the Great God will be two of the first that fall when the Fifth Thunder begins to sound in the Churches of God that have failed to repent from God’s correction.”
From the Book:
“Before the Seventh (and final) Seal is opened, the Seven Thunders will become so pronounced that the validity of everything written about them in the previous chapter should roar loudly in the ears of anyone who is willing to admit the truth.” [pp. 115, 2008: God’s Final Witness]
There you have it.
The falling of the living church of God and the Church of the Great God was a prophecy made by Weinland – that this would be the “fifth thunder” sounding. However, in the book, it is written that ALL seven thunders will become pronounced and validate everything said. The problem is, the seventh seal has been opened. Clearly, Weinland said “BEFORE” the seal is opened, these thunders will become “pronounced and roar loudly”! However, the Living Church of God AND the Church of the Great God continue, NONE has fallen!
Therefore, this prophecy:
“Indeed, the Living Church of God, under the leadership of Roderick Meredith, and the Church of the Great God will be two of the first that fall when the Fifth Thunder begins to sound in the Churches of God that have failed to repent from God’s correction.”
Is false OR THIS prophecy:
““Before the Seventh (and final) Seal is opened, the Seven Thunders will become so pronounced that the validity of everything written about them in the previous chapter should roar loudly in the ears of anyone who is willing to admit the truth.” [pp. 115, 2008: God’s Final Witness]”
is false. ONE of them is false! There is no way around it, if one will open their ears and losten. OR the date of the “Seventh Seal” opening is false! These are serious, massive discrepancies. And they cannot be ignored. Open your eyes, people!!!
shadowsofwcg
March 23, 2008 at 5:41 pm
“Indeed, the Living Church of God, under the leadership of Roderick Meredith, and the Church of the Great God will be two of the first that fall when the Fifth Thunder begins to sound in the Churches of God that have failed to repent from God’s correction.”
Well he can say that it has not ended sounding or something along those lines…it’s the same old story. Someone mentioned ‘overlapping’ and that’s exactly what he will try to do here (and even mentioned this himself!). So what he can play on is: Is sounding – Has not finished sounding yet, Has opened – has not closed yet. In this so called ‘Prophecy’ it’s undetermined when things end…therefore RW looks for signs in the world to determine (which is called 100% monopoly btw)…and or say God has revealed it to him.
Remember he still has 100% control over this/his Prophecy…until April…the bail out date?
Firestorm
March 23, 2008 at 6:20 pm
Here`s my favourite pull-quote from that Interview Comments page:
“As the leader of the Living Church of God, Roderick Meredith is mentioned as one of many ministers who will die as a result of the prophesied Fifth Thunder.”
Seventh seal is opened, thunders haven’t sounded, and Spanky is alive and well. As I’ve said elsewhere, can’t we stick a fork in Weinland yet? He’s definitely done!
Sigh. No. No we probably can’t.
weinlandwatch
March 23, 2008 at 6:46 pm
Notice the wording “begins to sound”.
That indicates in the times in the beginning of the opening of the fifth seal. It doesn’t indicate something midway or towards the end. He also mentions that all seven thunders will become pronounced by the opening of the seventh seal which supposedly occured on March 18th…..
With that thinking, then, if the fifth thunder should have become “pronounced”, or matured, then this living/great God thing SHOULD have happened!
shadowsofwcg
March 23, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Just out of morbid curiousity Shadows, can you tell us if Weinland was as Revelation-dependent when he was with Worldwide as he is since he’s been running the god’s end-time prophet schtick?
Certainly Weinland must have never laid claim to being one of the two witnesses (he would have been disfellowshipped and marked pretty quickly if he had), but was he big on the Kingdom’s-gonna-come schtick that was so popular ca. ’79 – ’93 (my dates are vague too), and that he now appears to be recycling whole-cloth?
Three-quarters of a century later, that kingdom’s never going to come, people. And even if it did, would you want to live for all of eternity with those rules?
I’m a member of “the scattered church” Weinland likes to harp on and on about, I was an absolutely dyed-in-the-wool, hard-liner, and I can absolutely guarantee you I wouldn’t want to live under those same rules for all eternity.
weinlandwatch
March 23, 2008 at 7:00 pm
he was not. He was your typical, run of the mill WCG minister – rule with an iron hand.
I remember him saying once from the pulpit,
“But if anyone starts division I come down like a ton of bricks”.
His strategy in my opinion was not to shepard the flock with love. His strategy, at least at that time, was apparently only in “ruling” the flock. Very legalist – Sermonettes were not to exceed 10 minutes, he rarely granted others speaking time,and in my opinion, he was the one “In Charge”, and he was not to be questioned.
And this brings in mind an interesting point. Why were not the two witnesses “called together”? Who ordained Weinland as the “spokesman” of the Two? Why hasn’t the “other” come on the scene? And isn’t it God, and NOT Weinland, who determines who the other “Witness” is? Credibility is lost that the “Two” are not working together right now – and if they are, why is the “Weinland Witness” more important than the other? Or so it seems?
shadowsofwcg
March 23, 2008 at 7:16 pm
I have used this question a hundred times in some fashion or the other:
“If YOU were God, and you were going to send a prophet to Earth, you would want what they preached to be 100% in line with YOUR word (The Bible) wouldn’t you?”
The only way for anyone in the PKG to not be able to answer that question is if they were under the spell of a mind-controlling preacher.
And the books are complete crocks. I read both again and I have cross referenced many of the things he’s said…. almost all of his works are from 1975 in Prophecy, with just a few verbage changes… and The United States and Britain in Prophecy. Ron also borrows quite heavily from other sermons from H. W. Armstrong.
Although he has some twists on things that I have chatted about before here, Weinland’s a fraud. I agree that he may be in this for only the money at this point. I am sure there’s a secondary motive here….”If I can’t pinpoint this, at least I will have gotten rich trying to do so.” .. Because since these books have come out, big monthly tithes have come in….. will he “send them all back” when he’s debunked? I highly doubt it. Armstrong never did.
Jimmyhags
March 23, 2008 at 9:03 pm
Apparently (according to the March 15 sermon), family of a church member in Canada successfully agitated the church after the church member sent two thousand dollars in to the church, that was supposed to have been for education.
No word on whether or not lawyers or exit counsellors were involved, but if loved ones of church members are looking to agitate to get the tithe money back, I would recommend getting legal assistance in doing so. One family in Canada got their two thousand dollars back—according to Weinland. If the church gives you any problems, quote his own sermon at him.
weinlandwatch
March 23, 2008 at 9:13 pm
WW- I was thinking about the initial $60 in order to join the church. That certainly isn’t a tithe in the traditional respect. It seems like it’s a “fee.” If a church asked me to send in money BEFORE I even joined I would laugh right in their faces.
Most churches will tell you WHY they need money. And they don’t have to say “because God wants this” or “God wants that.” Legit churches will ASK members to give money for certain things…. such as building a garage, paving the parking lot, et….. if funds are tight. What always made me cringe is that WCG would always act like God would foresake you or damn you if you didn’t send in money for the project that “God told Mr. Armstrong to complete!”
Like the letter he wrote to the church after his wife died. I have cited this before. Not sure if anyone has seen it, but he basically blamed lack of money and lukewarm faith on his wife’s death and the lack of the end time on the fact that Ambassador College still had buildings to be built.
A work friend of mine told me yesterday that he’s 90 days down on his house rent. When I asked him how since he’s single and makes about $45k, he said, he “tithes 30 percent of his money to the House of Yahweh.”
Even in the midst of all out scandal, false prophecy and the utter descruction of lives, people are still send these clowns THOUSANDS of dollars per month.
But it also puzzles me that in his sermon about the $2,000… Ron says… “So we sent the money back!” …. I guess it shouldn’t be puzzling… what’s $2,000 out of $50-100,000 a month in revenue.
PKG from what I know has NO capital expenses, other than an office in OH. I am not sure if the “evangelists” are paid or not. So, it ALL points to the fact that Ron and his wife can pretty much afford to pick up and fly anywhere in the world they choose, rent hotel after hotel, etc..
And people say he should be commended for giving his books away for free.. He’s NOT giving them away for free. The one’s that read it and join end up paying THOUSANDS for these things.
If I was making $100,000 a year and wanted to join after I read a FREE BOOK, I would be sending in AT LEAST $20,060 per year to PKG. Well I guess it’s OK to give me the book for free. At that rate, he could afford to give away A THOUSAND free books and still make money off of me. Even if he had 1000 members tithing around $5,000 a year he’d make $5, 000,000 in revenue.. with the money he’s lost on free books.
Now I know some of these guys get people to foot the bill for the entire printing of the books… so there’s even more monthly cash.
So, yes… SEND IN YOUR TITHES!! God needs them!
Jimmyhags
March 24, 2008 at 2:03 am
$60 was what they charged one particular member. The baptismal tithe “records” they are requesting are on a sliding scale, based upon 10% of the prospective member’s income, as indicated in the church’s response letters to a prospective member here.
weinlandwatch
March 24, 2008 at 2:11 am
WW,
You mentioned,
“Just out of morbid curiousity Shadows, can you tell us if Weinland was as Revelation-dependent when he was with Worldwide as he is since he’s been running the god’s end-time prophet schtick?”
I do not recall Weinland ever speaking of end-times to his congregation, but it was discussed accasionally by one of his Elders who was named Roland Wiles. Roland belonged to the Franklin congregation. Weinland had two congregations that he was responsible for and these were in Erie and Franklin, PA.
Tom
March 26, 2008 at 11:11 pm
RW states on page 9 of the book 2008 God’s Final Witness, “The answer is not anything that is stated or written because words by themselves do not prove credibility and truth. That which man has written about God does not prove it is true. Only God Himself can prove what is true by bringing to pass exactly what He has said.” I take this to mean that Only God himself can prove the authority or anointing of the person professing to be one of the 2 final witnesses or prophet by bringing to pass exactly what the witness or prophet proclaims or predicts.
By RW’s OWN words….he is a false prophet. And by his OWN words, God DID NOT bring it to pass…
Banncam
March 27, 2008 at 3:59 am
The Church of God PKG is simply taking– like most all of them– Bible verses and twisting what they mean.
That’s why I alway marvel at the people that make up Ron’s church. It’s a safe bet that NONE of them have ever read the Bible at all. If they had they’d be scratching their heads.
I am certainly not trying to steer anyone to become an evangelical, but by SIMPLY reading the TEXT of the Bible one can come to the logical conclusion that Weinland is clueless.
I have talked to several “believers” in Weinland. Almost all of the are either UNCHURCHED, disgrunted Catholics or young people in their early to mid twenties.
Now there may be some old WCG people hanging around…. but for the most part… Weinland is gathering a flock that either has never heard of H.W Armstrong or simply is reaching out for something– anything at this point of their lives.
Youth for example—- not to take any credit from the minds of the youth or young adults, but the truth of the matter is—spiritually speaking it’s EASY to get a young person between the age of 17-24 or 25–especially if they come from a NON BIBLICAL background to believe anything you tell them. I know people in their 50s and 60s that have NEVER HEARD of Armstrong. So Ron is safe here in that respect.
If a new person “comes along” as Ron says and has never heard of WCG or HWA, then explaining away the nonsense that went on for 50 + years is not that difficult at first….. until the rotten smell in Denmark starts getting worse— which is when Ronny starts his damage control sermons.
jimmy
April 3, 2008 at 5:23 pm